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Topic: Chord Harp Tuning (Read 630 times)
John Broecker
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Chord Harp Tuning
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on:
December 26, 2009, 03:20:49 pm »
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Hello Harpers of Chords.
About 11 years ago, I asled Rick Epping at Hohner USA (via phone) about the tuning system used for the Hohner 48 Chord Harmonica. Which system, Equal Temperament or Just Intonation?
I think he told me that it's tuned in equal temperament, but I can't remember for sure.
Does any Elk River Forum chord harp player know the answer?
Thanks for your help. If no one replies, I can call Hohner again for the answer.
Happy Holidays
John Broecker
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48chord
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #1
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December 26, 2009, 09:42:55 pm »
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Hey John, I've spent many years developing the proper tuning for the chord harmonica, all chord harmonicas must be tuned using Just Intonation and that's just the tip of the iceberg “ Equal Temperament tuning” clips all the harmonic overtones and sounds like 8 cats in a bag fighting, the cool thing is ( when I tune a chord harmonica ) all the notes in the chords have the correct relationship to each other and octave notes produce a invisible third sound, and remember this when you play for example a " C major " chord C-E-G-C any other chord that has those notes in them will also vibrate and enhance the chord being played, these are also harmonic overtones.
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Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 06:03:28 pm by 48chord
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jim
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #2
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December 27, 2009, 02:50:26 am »
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why are those things not built like a chomatic (with a slide separating minors from majors)? It's a pain to see poor chord players shifting that huge thing from side to side...
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John Broecker
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #3
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December 27, 2009, 10:44:49 am »
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Hello, 48 Chord.
Thanks for your information about the just intonation system in the Hohner 48 Chrord Harmonica.
Wally Peterman gave me a tuning chart listing all of the Hohner 48's reeds' tunings, including - cent and + cent descriptions. I think that he said the chart was from a Hohner repair technician.
I could have looked on the chart, but I just remembered it now.
The tuning process for a 48 chord octave-system harp is way beyond my limited knowledge of reed tunings, and I wouldn't consider doing the work myself, but someday I may find the time to learn proper maintenance and repairs of my many harmonicas.
If you'd like a free copy of the Hohner 48 chord tuning chart, please send an e-mail request off-list. This offer is for "48chord" only, I can't afford to send copies to other Elk River 4M members.
The chart is hand-written, and is not legible in spots, but with your 48 chord tuning experience you'll be able to "fill in the blanks."
Thanks again. Happy Holidays.
John Broecker
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Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 10:49:40 am by John Broecker
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48chord
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #4
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December 27, 2009, 07:52:33 pm »
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John, this is Wally Peterman, and what I gave to you years ago was 1 of 4 tuning settings Hohner used from Day one, what I use is a correct tuning that when playing split-chords is constant , haha your right this is above your head, and no John I did not get this from a Hohner repair technician this has come by many, many years of Documenting reed settings of New and Used 48 chord harmonicas, John the tuning chart I gave you was done in 1983 and if I were too have given you any more than that it would have been over load.
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Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 08:29:15 pm by 48chord
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elkriverharmonicas
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #5
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December 28, 2009, 12:09:34 pm »
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Wally, glad to see you here. For those who don't know, Wally is one of the greatest chord players ever in the history of the world. Wally is the master of the split chord, which, is this technique of getting chords that aren't technically on the 48 chord by playing portions of two chords together.
Wally has also started me on this weird quest of understand chords, which are very complex, you could spend a lifetime and still have more to learn. Just figured out yesterday that if you add a "A" note to a C chord, you get an Am7 inversion.... I wasn't thinking about that stuff before I met Wally.
Jim, the thing is when you see those chord players shifting from side to side, it's not something the harmonica was really designed for. All the chords are laid out so the IV chord is left of the I, V left of the IV, the 7th always the draw to the left, the minor is right underneath. When you see them going from one end to the other, they are hitting something like an F# after a G chord or something like that. They really are beautifully designed things.
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John Broecker
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #6
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December 28, 2009, 04:08:08 pm »
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Hello, Wally (48Chord) Peterman.
It's an honor and a priviledge seeing your words in print.
Sorry, I didn't know that you are "48Chord."
The reed tunings listed on your 1983 tuning sheet are understandable, but doing them is quite another thing. It would take me 10 lifetimes to retune my Hohner 48 chord harp, but you could do the work probably in about a month (maybe less?).
I'm not asking you to repair my chord harp at this time, but maybe in the distant future. The Suzuki SCH-24 is my present chord harp. I like the plastic combs and separate bass notes.
You've said in the past to shelf the Suzuki and use the Hohner 48, and I'm ready to do that now, after achieving success with the SCH-24. I upgraded to the SCH-24 after playing the Huang Chordet 20 for a few years.
Thanks for your help. You are a great harp player and friend.
Happy Holidays
John Broecker
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jim
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #7
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December 29, 2009, 08:31:06 am »
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the use of slide for chord harps was suggested by a friend of mine, an experienced player, that had an old-school harmonica trio.
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48chord
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #8
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December 31, 2009, 08:51:50 am »
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Hi Jim, I took a few days to think about this, can putting a slide on the chord be done? Yes! and it has, the chord player from the Adler trio (Dror Adler) has a chord like that, how cool is that! now the draw back, slides work on spring tension and friction, mix that with the fact that a chord player skin from the lips and tongue and inside the mouth from moving the tongue around to produce rhythm sounds along with the amount of saliva that gets into the chord gluing up the slide, Note: making rhythm sounds requires touching your tongue against the surface of the chord which produces saliva, try this: scrape your tongue against your teeth and see how much saliva is there.
Jim what I see that will be happening is that the chord man will be taking the slide assembly apart to clean it a lot and for myself getting a fat lip from time to time is ok with me.
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Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 12:32:14 pm by 48chord
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John Broecker
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #9
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January 01, 2010, 01:24:47 pm »
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Hello, Wally Peterman and others.
I had Seydel maike a chromatic chord harp for me in 2007, from the Chromatic Deluxe Baritone, with circular system note placement. It's similar to Jim's True Chromatic in that it's from the Baritone, and has a circular tuning system.
From what Jim has written, he has all chords available, starting anywhere on the harp. Mine is the same, going through 13th chords starting on every note. But Jim's is apparently tuned better. Mine is based on a C major tuning, while Jim's is based on a C minor tuning. If this is over-simplified, Jim, please let us know.
Also, Jim's tuning system is more chord-like (more harmonious), as he spent a lot of time in audio research.
Both harps are slide chord chromatic harps, with a large number of chords available. And they can be played as slide chromatic 12-hole harps, after the new note placement system is mastered.
These are slide chromatic harps, with one big drawback. Where the Hohner and Suzuki 48 chord harps are octave-tuned, these 12-hole slide chord chromatics have single reed per note setup.
Two reeds per note would be very expensive, hard to tune, and weigh almost 2X as much as the single reed setup.
Although the Seydel Chromatic Deluxe Baritone slide chord-chromatic harps are very versatile, and have more than 48 chords available, the sound output is less than on an octave tuned 48 chord.
When using a microphone, the slide chromatic's smaller size and weight is a benefit, and the tonal balance is achieved on the mixing board.
John Broecker
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48chord
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #10
on:
January 01, 2010, 02:27:14 pm »
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Wow I did look at the YouTube video of Jim's concept, Very amazing, can this be use for chording? Yes! What are all the possible chords that can be produce Jim? I sure hope this works out for you! Yeah there is a difference with the 48 chord you get very full chords and because I play split chords, I have been able to play near 200 different chords on the Hohner 48 chord, the Suzuki 48 chord has less chords that can be made because of the inversion lay out, but I keep working on them and one day I will past this on to Dave Payne. (Dave don’t let me down)
However you create chords / chord sounds have fun with it, make the best with what works good for you. Wally Peterman
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Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 11:34:54 pm by 48chord
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48chord
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #11
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January 02, 2010, 12:55:19 am »
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Here is a small lists of chords in either the straight position or in the split position that are on the Hohner 48 chord Note: these are played with the major chords on top minor chords on bottom, if you flip the chord upside down you get a whole different world of split chords.
12-Major 11-Major 7th (draw-different tongue block position)
12-Dominant 7th 11-6th (draw-different tongue block position)
12-Minor 11-Dominant 7#9th (Jimi Hendrix chord)
6-Diminished 7th 12- 5th (Cajun sounding chord)
6-Augmented 11-Minor 7th -Tongue block 2 minor chords
11-Major 9th 11-Minor 9th -Tongue block 2 minor chords
11-Major 7th-blow 11- inverted Major- Tongue block 2 minor chords
11-6th-blow 11- inverted Major 7th -Tongue block 2 minor chords
Please note: I left out about 15 more chords that can be made by tongue block/ splitting 2 minor chords and drawing between a Augmented and a Diminishd chord , I will add those to this list
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Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 11:15:36 am by 48chord
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jim
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #12
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January 02, 2010, 05:25:51 am »
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Here's what True Chromatic's capable of chord-wise:
octave 1:
Cm, Dbm, Dm, Ebm / Cm7, Db7, Dm7, Ebm7
Eb, E, F, Gb / Eb7, E7, F7, Gb7
Gm, Abm, Am, Bbm / Gm7, Abm7, Am7, Bbm7
Bb, B, C / Bb7, B7, C7
octave 2:
C, Db / C7, Db7
Dm, Ebm, Em, Fm / Dm7, Ebm7, Em7, Fm7
F, Gb, G, Ab / F7, Gb7, G7, Ab7
Am, Bbm, Bm, Cm, C / Am7, Bbm7, Bm7, Cm7, C7
octave 3:
Cm, C, Db, D, Eb / Cm7, C7, Db7, D7, Eb7
Em, Fm, Gbm, Gm / Em7, Fm7, Gbm7, Gm7
G, Ab, A, Bb, B
octave 4 has no chords (holes 11-12), only intervals.
All in all, it's supposed to be 74 chord combinations;)
John Broecker wrote me about his chrom. tuning, and I too trie it at first. It's based on C Maj as John said, and the disadvantage of it was more complicated "reading" of chords (when you look at the diagram, it would be "checkmate" maj-min chordal pattern. And the second disadvantage was that the Bmaj chord is missing. At least in my early prototype it was like that. So I tuned the blow to a minor chord as well, making it easier to "navigate" throughout the instrument (all odd holes (1,3,5,7,9) build minor chords, and all even holes (2,4,6,8) build major chords. Here's an interactive webapp to get an idea how positional chrom. playing works:
http://truechromatic.com/true_chromatic.html
)
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Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 05:31:40 am by jim
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elkriverharmonicas
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Re: Chord Harp Tuning
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Reply #13
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January 13, 2010, 10:36:17 am »
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Hey Wally, what changes when you flip upside down?
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